× 1-800-946-2642 Home My Account Social / Forum Articles Contact My Cart
Shop Now
Select Your Car Type Sale Items Clearance Items New Items
Save today on selected Deves piston rings
   Forum Width:     Forum Type: 

Found 38 Messages

Previous Set of Pages 1 | 2

 Posted: Nov 16, 2016 11:57AM
Total posts: 8382
Last post: Jan 13, 2022
Member since:Feb 7, 2006
Cars in Garage: 0
Photos: 0
WorkBench Posts: 0
Looking at your carb pics the gasket between the carb body and cone filter does not look correct, almost looks like a HS4 gasket from what i can see. I have seen some of these gaskets installed incorrectly and block the holes that let the piston displace the air when it rises and lowers under acceleration and deceleration. It may be worth checking that these two holes are not blocked by the gasket.

If in doubt, flat out. Colin Mc Rae MBE 1968-2007.

Give a car more power and it goes faster on the straights,
make a car lighter and it's faster everywhere. Colin Chapman.

 Posted: Nov 16, 2016 09:30AM
 Edited:  Nov 16, 2016 09:41AM
Total posts: 277
Last post: Dec 16, 2017
Member since:Dec 19, 2008
Cars in Garage: 1
Photos: 1
WorkBench Posts: 0
US
Quote:
Originally Posted by nkerr
see the picture attached to my post above, that is the original drawing which shows where to drill the hole
Yes verified with a timing light.  Bogging down as soon as the throttle is cracked and when shifting gears and back on acceleration.  

Speaking of oil...started out with a 20wt.  Moved to a 30wt and seemed to be a bit better. 

Taking the mini to Sacromento to be dyno'ed next month(from Seattle). Want to make sure I the car is in the correct config (Ported or Manifold vacuum) before that.

 Posted: Nov 16, 2016 09:08AM
Total posts: 654
Last post: Dec 20, 2017
Member since:Sep 24, 2011
Cars in Garage: 0
Photos: 0
WorkBench Posts: 0
see the picture attached to my post above, that is the original drawing which shows where to drill the hole

 Posted: Nov 16, 2016 08:56AM
Total posts: 9807
Last post: Apr 25, 2025
Member since:Aug 14, 2002
Cars in Garage: 0
Photos: 0
WorkBench Posts: 0
CA
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peppieandmister
 
Yes...Thanks Norm!

Yikes...that sounds a bit scary to start drilling holes in my carb. Why the heck don't they sell one with ported vac?


They probably do.

But before shelling out for a new cab and getting into more tuning problems, you need to go back to the beginning and check the advance with the engine under load. A loaded engine with the throttle open generates less vacuum that a free-revving one. Your real total advance may not be as drastic as the app shows. Maybe there's something more for you to figure out what the readings really mean. (I'm starting to think you are suffering from too much information!) Have you confirmed total advance with a timing light?

The basics are: you have hesitation at certain rpms and load that you need to solve, and at the same time ensure your engine doesn't ping or knock. The hesitation may need the curve modified for that rpm range OR it may be carb hesitation, as in dashpot action and damping isn't right for your engine at that rpm. Maybe you just need a lighter carb oil.

.

"Hang on a minute lads....I've got a great idea."

 Posted: Nov 16, 2016 06:47AM
 Edited:  Nov 16, 2016 07:04AM
Total posts: 277
Last post: Dec 16, 2017
Member since:Dec 19, 2008
Cars in Garage: 1
Photos: 1
WorkBench Posts: 0
US
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Moffet
Thanks for coming through Norm! (Hit 2 returns to get paragraph separation!)

Peppieandmister: changing the port involves adding a nipple like the one you have the vac advance line hooked up to, but angled to be outside the throttle plate in its closed position. There was a discussion on this some time ago but I can't find it. If I recall correctly, the hole to be drilled is stepped - one to produce the right sized orifice in the throat and a re-bore to receive the pressed-in nipple.

Maybe if JEG is lurking... I think he had something on this.

Yes...Thanks Norm!

Yikes...that sounds a bit scary to start drilling holes in my carb. Why the heck don't they sell one with ported vac?

I'm not sure but there is a brass plug just next to my vacuum pickup. Maybe thats the one for ported vac? 

 Posted: Nov 16, 2016 06:25AM
Total posts: 9807
Last post: Apr 25, 2025
Member since:Aug 14, 2002
Cars in Garage: 0
Photos: 0
WorkBench Posts: 0
CA
Thanks for coming through Norm! (Hit 2 returns to get paragraph separation!)

Peppieandmister: changing the port involves adding a nipple like the one you have the vac advance line hooked up to, but angled to be outside the throttle plate in its closed position. There was a discussion on this some time ago but I can't find it. If I recall correctly, the hole to be drilled is stepped - one to produce the right sized orifice in the throat and a re-bore to receive the pressed-in nipple.

Maybe if JEG is lurking... I think he had something on this.

.

"Hang on a minute lads....I've got a great idea."

 Posted: Nov 16, 2016 05:50AM
Total posts: 277
Last post: Dec 16, 2017
Member since:Dec 19, 2008
Cars in Garage: 1
Photos: 1
WorkBench Posts: 0
US
Image Gallery
Quote:
Originally Posted by nkerr
here is more information, more accurate than mine above, from someone more knowledgable than I: "What IS ported or manifold vacuum? Manifold is a connection directly at the manifold. Ported is a little hole into the carb, just on the carb side of the throttle plate. At idle, the hole is pretty well sealed off from the manifold, so no vacuum. As the throttle opens, this hole becomes more connected to the manifold, so vacuum at the port increases. It actually increases above manifold vacuum, which is dropping since the throttle is opening more, but there is high velocity air passing the port, causing more vacuum. Once the throttle is more than about 1/3 to half open, the manifold and carb are both seeing low vacuum, but there is still high airflow past the hole, so it sees a bit more. In practice, the port vacuum will be a bit above manifold from above idle to about 1/3 throttle." "Manifold ported systems tend to have vac advance calibrated to give a fair advance at idle, say 5 static plus 10 vac, and they hold enough advance as the throttle opens to let the engine get going fast enough that the majority of the mech adv comes in before the vac advance disappears at wide throttle openings. If they don't do this they bog horribly. At part throttle cruise, both ported and manifold tend to give similar vac advance, for good economy. ?IOW, the port/manifold thing doesn't matter to the distributor per se, but it sure does to the engine, and the distributor is calibrated to account for this.? A ported outlet will have no or very low vac at idle, and rise rapidly as you open the throttle off idle, then drop as you get to very wide throttle openings.?Ported systems typically have no significant vac advance until the throttle is well above idle, so you have the static setting, say 5deg, plus a bit of mech advance, say another 4 deg at 800 rpm, but zero vac adv, for a total of 9 at idle. " How did they decide between the two options? "The emissions setup changes things, they are so lean at idle that they need a lot of advance to run at all. " This is why MG Midgets running 1275 engines in the early '70s changed from ported to manifold vac for their US spec (strangled) emissions engines. They kept ported for their UK spec (optimized running) engines. This is why I changed mine from manifold to ported vac, and had Jeff re-curve my distributor and replace the vac advance to suit it. Basically I have my 1275 tuned as per 1967 spec (the one they used on 1275 Midgets in the UK from '67 ~ '74). Norm
I think this is what is causing my bogging.

So how do I go about changing to a ported vacuum?

(In the picture you will see the vacuum plate. This is used as a spacer as my manifold studs were a bit long)

 Posted: Nov 16, 2016 03:59AM
Total posts: 654
Last post: Dec 20, 2017
Member since:Sep 24, 2011
Cars in Garage: 0
Photos: 0
WorkBench Posts: 0
oh, for crap's sake, why doesn't MM's website allow carriage return / paragraphs?

My reply looks reasonable until i hit submit and then it is turned into a ridiculous sea of words, without spaces.

 Posted: Nov 16, 2016 03:57AM
 Edited:  Nov 16, 2016 03:57AM
Total posts: 654
Last post: Dec 20, 2017
Member since:Sep 24, 2011
Cars in Garage: 0
Photos: 0
WorkBench Posts: 0
here is more information, more accurate than mine above, from someone more knowledgable than I:

"What IS ported or manifold vacuum? Manifold is a connection directly at the manifold.

Ported is a little hole into the carb, just on the carb side of the throttle plate. At idle, the hole is pretty well sealed off from the manifold, so no vacuum. As the throttle opens, this hole becomes more connected to the manifold, so vacuum at the port increases. It actually increases above manifold vacuum, which is dropping since the throttle is opening more, but there is high velocity air passing the port, causing more vacuum. Once the throttle is more than about 1/3 to half open, the manifold and carb are both seeing low vacuum, but there is still high airflow past the hole, so it sees a bit more. In practice, the port vacuum will be a bit above manifold from above idle to about 1/3 throttle."

"Manifold ported systems tend to have vac advance calibrated to give a fair advance at idle, say 5 static plus 10 vac, and they hold enough advance as the throttle opens to let the engine get going fast enough that the majority of the mech adv comes in before the vac advance disappears at wide throttle openings. If they don't do this they bog horribly. At part throttle cruise, both ported and manifold tend to give similar vac advance, for good economy. ?IOW, the port/manifold thing doesn't matter to the distributor per se, but it sure does to the engine, and the distributor is calibrated to account for this.?

A ported outlet will have no or very low vac at idle, and rise rapidly as you open the throttle off idle, then drop as you get to very wide throttle openings.?Ported systems typically have no significant vac advance until the throttle is well above idle, so you have the static setting, say 5deg, plus a bit of mech advance, say another 4 deg at 800 rpm, but zero vac adv, for a total of 9 at idle. "

How did they decide between the two options?

"The emissions setup changes things, they are so lean at idle that they need a lot of advance to run at all. " This is why MG Midgets running 1275 engines in the early '70s changed from ported to manifold vac for their US spec (strangled) emissions engines. They kept ported for their UK spec (optimized running) engines.

This is why I changed mine from manifold to ported vac, and had Jeff re-curve my distributor and replace the vac advance to suit it. Basically I have my 1275 tuned as per 1967 spec (the one they used on 1275 Midgets in the UK from '67 ~ '74).

Norm

 Posted: Nov 15, 2016 07:33PM
Total posts: 277
Last post: Dec 16, 2017
Member since:Dec 19, 2008
Cars in Garage: 1
Photos: 1
WorkBench Posts: 0
US
Quote:
Originally Posted by nkerr
that sounds right: if the port is located right at the throttle plate so that it is cut off from vacuum at idle, that is ported If the port is located on the manifold, that is manifold vacuum (vac rises to max at idle). Both types see about the same amount of vacuum everywhere else in the throttle position/RPM range, it is the difference at idle, I think, that is the most different. Jeff Schlemmer at Advanced Distributors, or Joe Curto could explain it better. Joe helped me to sort it out on my car. N
Well if that's the case mine is Manifold.  The pickup isn't on the Manifold but it's on the Manifold side of the butterfly and always has vacuum. 

 Posted: Nov 15, 2016 07:08PM
Total posts: 654
Last post: Dec 20, 2017
Member since:Sep 24, 2011
Cars in Garage: 0
Photos: 0
WorkBench Posts: 0
that sounds right: if the port is located right at the throttle plate so that it is cut off from vacuum at idle, that is ported

If the port is located on the manifold, that is manifold vacuum (vac rises to max at idle).

Both types see about the same amount of vacuum everywhere else in the throttle position/RPM range, it is the difference at idle, I think, that is the most different.

Jeff Schlemmer at Advanced Distributors, or Joe Curto could explain it better. Joe helped me to sort it out on my car.

N

 Posted: Nov 15, 2016 02:05PM
Total posts: 9807
Last post: Apr 25, 2025
Member since:Aug 14, 2002
Cars in Garage: 0
Photos: 0
WorkBench Posts: 0
CA
I think so, but as I said I'm no expert in that. (I stopped studying that part when i got mine to work!)
Maybe Doug Lawson, Norm Kerr or JEG will drop by and enlighten us.

.

"Hang on a minute lads....I've got a great idea."

 Posted: Nov 15, 2016 10:05AM
Total posts: 277
Last post: Dec 16, 2017
Member since:Dec 19, 2008
Cars in Garage: 1
Photos: 1
WorkBench Posts: 0
US
So my HIF44 vacuum pickup is after the butterfly.  Is that Manifold vacuum?

 Posted: Nov 15, 2016 08:11AM
 Edited:  Nov 15, 2016 08:22AM
Total posts: 9807
Last post: Apr 25, 2025
Member since:Aug 14, 2002
Cars in Garage: 0
Photos: 0
WorkBench Posts: 0
CA
Looking at your advance curve chart, you have maximum advance of 31 degrees at 5000 rpm.
Looking at your MAP curve, the vacuum advance gives 10 degrees between points 3 and 4 then drops away to zero by point 5.

The other 5 images suggest you were taking these readings with no load on the engine - the GPS reads zero speed.

With no load on the engine it does not take much throttle to spin the engine up, so the available vacuum would stay high. Even so, as an engine runs it generated vacuum. The chart attached ( from //www.tdcperformance.ca/pdfs/123Mini-32.pdf ) shows (the bottom curve) that vacuum is present throughout the operating range. I'm not sure what info that line is supposed to convey, but you could contact Marcel Chichak to ask about it.

I'm not sure about the 123, but I believe in some cases both advances can be in play at certain times. In other words they would be additive.

Concerning the port on the carb: SUs come with variations. Doug Lawson explains the difference here, from 2013:

Quote:
Originally Posted by dklawson

The issue with adding a vacuum connection for the distributor is that you have to know if the capsule on the distributor was intended to connect to manifold or ported vacuum.  Ported vacuum comes from the venturi in the carb while manifold vacuum is taken at the exit of the carb or from the intake manifold.  The level of this vacuum and where it peaks during driving are different between ported and manifold vacuum.  If you connect to the wrong one you will likely have problems getting the car to idle where you expect it should.  If the car drove well (years ag without the vacuum connection I would not connect it until after you have found the source of the current problem. 

Have a look through this thread from 2015 about SU carbs and their variations on vacuum ports.

//www.minimania.com/msgThread/117499/1/1/Another_Vacuum_Advance_Unit_Question

Your carb may have the wrong port for your 123 unit.



.

"Hang on a minute lads....I've got a great idea."

 Posted: Nov 14, 2016 07:01PM
Total posts: 277
Last post: Dec 16, 2017
Member since:Dec 19, 2008
Cars in Garage: 1
Photos: 1
WorkBench Posts: 0
US
Image Gallery
So I've added my specs from my 123.  Still can't seem to get my settings right for the vacuum advance curve.  Way to much advance....over 35 degrees.   

If if you have a 123 please take a look and let me know what you think. 

 Posted: Nov 14, 2016 12:30PM
Total posts: 277
Last post: Dec 16, 2017
Member since:Dec 19, 2008
Cars in Garage: 1
Photos: 1
WorkBench Posts: 0
US
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Moffet
Something you need to get straight first:  vacuum advance and advance curve are two different things. Generally speaking, they don't function at the same time.

Vacuum advance is a fuel economy device. Basically, it advances the spark while the throttle is closed so that the engine can run slightly leaner at idle. As soon as you start to press on the gas pedal, manifold vacuum drops and the vacuum advance relaxes. When you lift your foot off, vacuum builds and the advance applies itself. The intention is that the vacuum advance is of so as not to interfere with the spark timing advance.

Spark timing advance, mechanical or electronic, is a function of engine rpm. In simple terms, the faster the engine is spinning, the spark needs to be provided earlier (combustion takes time) to get the maximum energy out of combustion when the piston needs it most. WHEN it is needed is a function of the engine build - compression, valve timing etc. Note: a 123 does not have a mechanical advance; it uses electronics to measure the rpm and advance the timing based on the curve provided.

The advance curve will function the same whether or not the vacuum advance is connected. So, you just need to select or program the appropriate curve for your engine. It might help to disconnect and cap it. As stock, the 123 should provide 0 (zero ) advance until the engine reaches 500rpm, then step up onto the curve, which then should be equal to the idle advance in degrees for your engine. The top end of the curve should only provide the maximum advance in degrees permitted/recommended for your engine. If you look at the pre-printed curves on the 123 website, they all start at the same point and each group of 4 ends at the same point. In between some curves are pretty flat, some have more bulge or are steeper, depending again on what your engine needs.

One other thing to check is WHERE your vacuum line is connected at the carb. Some carbs have the orifice in the wrong spot (though this bit confuses me!). The result is that as the throttle opens, the vacuum effect is different and wrong.
I'm square on the difference on Vac and Mech advance.

However, I'm watching the vacuum on the 123 app while driving and it is showing vacuum under half and 3/4 throttle. Of course it goes to zero at WOT.   

The HIF44 I have has the vacuum pickup at the top of the hole.

 Posted: Nov 14, 2016 11:54AM
Total posts: 9807
Last post: Apr 25, 2025
Member since:Aug 14, 2002
Cars in Garage: 0
Photos: 0
WorkBench Posts: 0
CA
Something you need to get straight first:  vacuum advance and advance curve are two different things. Generally speaking, they don't function at the same time.

Vacuum advance is a fuel economy device. Basically, it advances the spark while the throttle is closed so that the engine can run slightly leaner at idle. As soon as you start to press on the gas pedal, manifold vacuum drops and the vacuum advance relaxes. When you lift your foot off, vacuum builds and the advance applies itself. The intention is that the vacuum advance is of so as not to interfere with the spark timing advance.

Spark timing advance, mechanical or electronic, is a function of engine rpm. In simple terms, the faster the engine is spinning, the spark needs to be provided earlier (combustion takes time) to get the maximum energy out of combustion when the piston needs it most. WHEN it is needed is a function of the engine build - compression, valve timing etc. Note: a 123 does not have a mechanical advance; it uses electronics to measure the rpm and advance the timing based on the curve provided.

The advance curve will function the same whether or not the vacuum advance is connected. So, you just need to select or program the appropriate curve for your engine. It might help to disconnect and cap it. As stock, the 123 should provide 0 (zero ) advance until the engine reaches 500rpm, then step up onto the curve, which then should be equal to the idle advance in degrees for your engine. The top end of the curve should only provide the maximum advance in degrees permitted/recommended for your engine. If you look at the pre-printed curves on the 123 website, they all start at the same point and each group of 4 ends at the same point. In between some curves are pretty flat, some have more bulge or are steeper, depending again on what your engine needs.

One other thing to check is WHERE your vacuum line is connected at the carb. Some carbs have the orifice in the wrong spot (though this bit confuses me!). The result is that as the throttle opens, the vacuum effect is different and wrong.

.

"Hang on a minute lads....I've got a great idea."

 Posted: Nov 14, 2016 07:49AM
Total posts: 277
Last post: Dec 16, 2017
Member since:Dec 19, 2008
Cars in Garage: 1
Photos: 1
WorkBench Posts: 0
US
Does anyone have a 123 distributor in a 1380?  I am having a little trouble getting the vacuum advance curve correct and would like to compare to someone else.

All is good at idle but as drive there is way to much vacuum advance.   I don't think reducing the mechanical advance is the answer since under accelerating conditions I will lose most of my vacuum and in turn not have enough mechanical. Seems like a catch 22 to me.

Thoughts/suggestions?

Found 38 Messages

Previous Set of Pages 1 | 2