thanks for answering my first question Fitz. You are the only person I have found, that has actually tried the F500 slicks.  Can I ask how heavy your car is, and what the ride height is, relative to stock?  Also the air pressure that you used, would be helpful;  I believe Hoosier recommends only about 8-12 PSI, for that tire, on the much lighter F500 car. 

Nic, I believe the car is cornering about as well as any Mini could on those tires.... Just like any Mini, it pushes under power, and goes back neutral-to-loose when you lift; touch the brakes and it comes right around.  It is lowered to improve aero dynamics and handling and to help keep the shiny side up.  I have it lowered to 3.5" floor clearance, which is about max for speed bumps, ramps and driveways. (I drive it to events, sometimes several thousand miles, like the MMW event in Canada, last year; 3200 miles round trip) and Lake Tahoe this year, about 1400 miles RT.. I cary my race wheels/tires, clothes, helmet tools, etc; I am 6'-4" and 230 pounds and sleep in the car to save on expenses. I am ecentric, but not certified, like Spank.

i know that some people can get some amazng reslts using unusual suspension setups. Are you having to low down because you are pushing through the tunrs?  If so, you want less tracking on the rear so it can come around.  FRW cars push, the key is to get the rear to pivot around so you can carry the power around the apex.  I would look into suspension changes, maybe different spring rates, adjust sway bars, ect.  Seems lie tracking may ot be your issue

I have a set of Hoosier F500 tires mounted on 10x6 Revolutions.  I used them for autocross and they were very good for that.  Not sure I would want to try them on a road course though, based on the weight difference between a F500 car and a Mini.  I ran on concrete and these tires had a lot of grip that it wasn't too hard to get up on two wheels.

Nick, I agree with most of what you say, maybe even that driver is more imnportant than car(in class racing), but my point was, that THIS driver is-what-he-is; and not likely to get better. so that leaves just the car, which can always be improved, considering no class rules apply in my case.  Reducing weight is always better than adding high maintenance power.  there's not much I can do about my sub-par eyesight, judjment, reflexes and coordination level.  I believe, actually, I KNOW you can make up for a good amount of driver inability, with a better car....picture a somewhat below average race car driver in a F-1 car, racing against Volkswagens with really good drivers.  This is an exagerated example, but you should get my point.  People don't make these kinds of comparisons, because of something called "class rules", but in my case there are no rules, so I can think and approach my build that way.  To me, rules just stifel creativity;  thats why you will find parts and modifications on my Mini that you will find on no other Mini in the world.  It is a very fast Mini, but just above average with me driving it. Right now, the tires are the biggest limiting factor.  You mentioned the use of 13s on VTEC Minis; yes, they are popular, no, they do not work well; Have you ever riden in one? The necessary offsets, scrub radius, torque steer, high unsprung weight....who knows? 

  If I didn't like Minis so much, I would have finished my carbon fiber Cobra replica with Fontana aluminum small block 427, and would be zipping past those Evos, and WRXs, and maybe keeping up with some of the Vettes and Vipers.  I don't think it would be as much fun as my Mini though. 

Sorry for the long winded posts....I think my keyboard has Diahrea. 

Thanks Spank, I knew you had to have given some thought to the car-side of the formula at some point, and I knew you were a better driver than you like to let on.  I have tried to take as much weight out of the front end as possible,(down to slightly under stock "A" series weight there);  The rear has been un touched so far, for reasons that you made note of.  Only the battery weight has been effectively removed from the back.  then I am running twin tanks with the extra fuel too, so the overall weight distribution is pretty stock. I did the corner weights at Bill Gearcases shop about a year ago (pre carbon panels), and it was very close to perfect, and with a 33/67 bias, front/rear, with total weight (half tank), of 1435, no driver.  I have bits on hand, to drop total weight down another 100 pounds, and a final goal of dropping 150, for a total wet weight in the high 1200s, with slightly more coming off the rear than the front.

  I think you are a bit optimistic on thinking your car cornered faster with a passenger; not saying it isn't possible, just unlikely and not likely to be able to "feel" the speed increase either. 

I talked to a couple instructors and some racers at the track, about my camber angles and tire pressures;  they seem to agree that I am in the ball park, on visual inspection,(2.5 and 1 degree camber, Front/Rear, and 28/26 PSI cold(32/30 hot).  Caster remains a question, but probably doesn't matter much; I have 6.5 degrees in there now, mainly to add to the static camber on the outside wheel when cornering, allowing the use of less static camber for highway straight line driving, which I do a lot of.

I hope you are right about the new, VS old tire grip.  I have some new A032s that I was going to mount up, but I think I am going to sell them, if I can find something better.  Might have to try the Hoosier TDs (Vintage tires), if I can't get real slicks.

I have to say, a fast driver is much more important then a fast car.  from my several track days, i have seen guys actually improve thier lap times in thier VW GTI's after they have an issue and lose boost.  Main reason is they had to learn to carry speed through corner instead of using the tourqe to pull them out.

With that said, i am not read the other threads, but if you are used to RWD, you can not make a FWD car drive like you are used to, the driving style is totally different.  If you have ever driven a porshe, you know you can not drive a 911 like any other car.  If you lift gas in a corner you will spin, almost always.

A FWD car will almost always push through the corners.  You can help this with a stiffer rear sway, looser front.  YOu can lift mid corner to get the rear to come around, but no matter what you try, you can not just got hot into the corners and gas out, it will push right off the track.

Also, i would think you could get 13" wheels to work, since a lot off guys with hondas use 13" and 14" wheels and put down 220 hp ok.  More HP will require wider tires to get the power to the ground

I'm actually very interested in this thread now and your participation, scooperman and CooperTune. I've always felt that our LeMons mini should be able to do more in the corners than it already does. While we're limited to DOT tires or 190 treadwear or greater, we get a "pass" currently when we run the 10" A008 Yokos since there's no treadwear rating for 10" tires.

As it sits now, the LeMons mini has on average 2 to 2-1/4 degrees of negative camber, about 3.5 to 4 -degrees caster (give or take), and about 1degree negative in the rear. zero rear toe, about 1/16" toe out in the front. All of this varies some since the cones settle when the car has been strapped to the trailer for a long drive or otherwise not checked. We do NOT use a rear swaybar and the car is very balanced and quite neutral handling. A 4-wheel drift is easy to control with the throttle and it gives pretty good lift-throttle steering. Mind you, this is only 60-ish hp and a 998 with an open diff.

We can use as much home-made aero as we want, and there are a LOT of people with FWD cars using air dams / splitters up front made of plywood or garden plastic and they all swear by them to promote front end grip at turn-in. I haven't tried any of that yet.

Anyway, some anecdotal evidence for you, salexander:

I own the fastest lap in a LeMons 65 plymouth barracuda a few weeks ago by 3+ seconds using only 4th gear, and I wasn't even trying. The car had marginal brakes, more marginal tires but a sh!t-ton of power (with a stroked 390 that had done 168mph before in a La Carrera Panamerica car). I would have it down to about 1500rpm in some of the sharpest turns and tickling 5k at the end of the long straights (where the rev limiter was set). I've only ever really driven a mini (or variant) at any speed on a track before so I'm all about FWD and momentum. The other drivers on the team were used to old American iron and I somehow accidentally drove faster than they did. I used the whole track and drove it like a momentum car using the brakes as little as possible. That meant my top speeds on the straights were not all that high, but my corner entry and exit speeds were likely higher than theirs as I wasn't overbraking. Overbraking is very easy for me to do since I'm a bit of a wimp/scaredy cat (I can count on half of a hand the number of turns I've overcooked and gone off track-- which means I'm not pushing it hard enough). And my fastest 2 laps came on my 6th and 7th lap ever in the car and first time ever on that track-- I always take the first 2 laps very slow and just to learn the track, then I ramp it up speed wise in the turns to learn the cars handling and brake, then I try to slowly increase to about 90% of what I think I can handle safely. If the track is clear, I can bump it up for a turn or two or until I feel like I'm on the verge of pushing it too much and risking the car's longevity. With only 20-30 minute track sessions that most track days do, it really makes it tough to start off slow to learn the track and then ramp it up in subsequent laps. Joe Subaru is on your arse in 2 turns thinking he needs to set the FTD on lap 1 pushing you, and by the time you feel comfortable by lap 4 or 5 then the session is just about over and you've never gotten a clean lap in.

And something I think you need to rethink is your "lighter is better" thinking. Lightness at the sacrifice of weight distribution will significantly impact handling and car balance. In my stage1 998 I was doing pretty well at track days and able to pass a lot of 1275 minis and even BINIS but they would have to lift. I would be all over them in the turns waiting for a point by and when I would try to come around it was at turn exit and they would just out horsepower me without trying. My turning speed was limited because of lack of adhesion so I couldn't feel comfortable just taking them early or mid-turn. But when I had a passenger (instructor), the car felt really really slow with the additional 150-200lbs, but my cornering speeds were actually HIGHER and I was able to pass cars at turn entry and mid turn and even turn exit because I had a bunch more adhesion and the car was more balanced. They would pass me mid straight most often, but what I lacked in the straightaways I more than made up for in the turns and all because I had better weight balance.

I've never paid attention to corner weight before on my cars, but I know you've said the vtec setup is about a hundred or so more pounds up front than stock and I know you're trying to lighten up the whole car to compensate. But is that added vtec weight forward of the front wheels and is the back end too light for your current suspension setup now? Maybe post some bathroom scale corner-weights for us armchair / keyboard quarterbacks to peruse. 

And finally, old tires vs new tires make more than a 10% difference. I had some old A008 (and by old I mean NOS but 15+ years old) and we spun and spun and spun the car at Thunderhill (including CrazyMike). They were fun for sliding through turns but didn't stick for crap when you needed cornering speed. Switching to new A008 made a HUGE difference in cornering speeds and confidence. Don't downplay the improvements to be had by newer A032Rs. Also, I recall reading somewhere (maybe on the vintage mini racing forum) that the A032r tires need some crazy camber numbers like 5 or 6 degrees. Don't quote me on that, and it may have been autocross numbers that were being thrown around, but something to think about.

Hey Steve, I'm Steve also and my question is more aimed at knowing how the car is handling. Is it tight , loose to much roll. What's it do under braking hows it act under throtle. I did a 30 minute session at VIR with a Traqmate. Driving my mid 80s 1000E completely stock other than Cooper S brakes. I drove 3.5 hours to the track on my 145 Kuhmos borrowed a set of 165 Falkins on 5 inch rims (a vintage racers rains) and did 1 full G left and right and .5 under braking. I'd think I could do better under braking but with no power to drive off I don't use much brake. My entry speed to at least half the corners was higher than the other cars in the session. Having never driven or walked the track I felt my entry was wrong to almost all the corners. This was 6 full years after selling my car parts trailer and bus.

Perhaps I should ask what numbers are on your car? castor camber toe in front camber and toe rear corner weights?

I know you are looking for majic bullet but when David goes after Goliath you are going to need it all.

Steve

John, I just saw your question; "what is the handling problem you are having?".  I am not having a handling problem, as such; The car handles great.  It is just severely limited in cornering grip, by the tires I am using, old A032s. I know that if I bought new ones, it would improve a bit, maybe 10%, and new TDs might get me 20%,  but I am looking for 40%.  The Z06 Vette I rode in with the instructor last month, makes 1.2 Gs lateral and 2.2 braking; it was incredible.  By comparison, my Mini would be lucky to make lateral .8 Gs, (by my seat-of-pants estimation).  What do you get out of your TDs, or have you checked?

Well, I gotta draw the line somewhere with this car, and I decided to keep it on 10s.  13s on VTEC Minis just do not seem to be controllable or look right; I'm not sure that even 8" tread-width 10s would work any better. I think these would require the hubs to be pushed out farther into the wheels(longer susp. arms), to get the right geometry. 

   During my 6 year long build/upgrade process, I never anticipated that a lowered, lightened, 200 HP Mini on A032s would still be slower at the track than stock Miatas, or Some SUVs on DOT tires,(still haven't figured that out).  I thought I would be right in there with the Mustangs, Evos and Suburus, and only giving way to the Vettes, Cobras, and Porsches.  I am forced to take consolation in the fact that so far, there are no Classic Minis that get by this car, at least not with a competant driver at the wheel.  I am pretty sure that with a new set of Dunlop slicks, I could at least stave off the Miata crowd, but I don't think I could afford a thousand bucks a weekend, just to keep rubber on the car.

 Spank, I am not sure I follow your Analysis of my Driving Philosophy, so I will clarify as best I can;  I believe there are two things nesessary to be competitive, a fast driver AND a fast car....The driver part is pretty much fixed...either you are potentially fast, or you are not.  At my age and physical ability,and with many years of driving/racing performance cars, I am not likely to get much better.  That leaves the car..... it can always be made faster, especially when there are no class rule restrictions; so logically, that is where I place most of my time, money, and efforts.  I figure the car is always more important to concentrate on any way, because it is never a problem to find a fast driver, if you have an exceptional car for them to drive.  As far as safety is concerned, I am not really.  I have cheated death for 65 years; I could go out for a walk on the freeway tomorrow, and whatever happened, I would, at worst, break even.

I checked that Bob Chick link....says he only sells 18" tires, but gave me another contact; Sasco in Va., who I have emailed for info on Dunlops.

Thanks, SA

Well there you go, there isn't a tire made that will fix the problem.

Steve

I was going to chime in, but if you haven't read Steve's other posts, he's looking to make the car suit his driving style versus altering his driving style to suit the car. He's expressed his limitations and he wants the car to do what he wants it to do versus him doing what the car wants. Which is all fine.

Just thought I'd put that out there for others before they start getting that brick imprint on their foreheads.

Steve, I have a BUNCH of 13" race slicks that I got from some guy who passed on and left the crap to his brother to deal with. I have one set of new hoosier DOT slicks mounted on new 13 x 8 wheels. They are a little tiny bit taller than 10's, though.  The other slicks I have look like they'll be very short-- probably the same diameter as the 10s. If you can find some rims to put them on, you are welcome to take a set to a track day.

BTW: I HIGHLY recommend the University of VARA track day in January at Buttonwillow. It's 2 days of track time with instruction. I've been several times and would like to go this year, too, but $ is tight. If I can convince someone from the club to take the LeMons mini, moke or America I'll go up there to support them and keep the car together, but I just don't think I should fork over the $ when I'd rather go further into debt doing more LeMons races instead of track days.

If I may ask, what is the handling problem you are having? Seems funny, as a vintage racer our problem is straight speed not the corners. What kind of settings are you useing? Some people can drive FWD and others have problems. At the end of my Solo 2 life I was 5th at the Nationals in Texas. I was looking a Formula 440 (then) tires. I was advised to go with something designed for my weight and speed. I found 13 inch Goodyear slicks can be very short wide and on 7 inch rims got the job done. Not trying to be cute but, dead the money you save on tires won't matter much. As a vintage racer I was involved in two heavy wrecks. Both a result of spilled oil at just the wrong place. Think safety now because when it all goes wrong it's to late.

Steve

Bob Chick sells scrub tires, Used Race Tires (843) 762-7168 [email protected]

Has anyone run a F500 slick on a Mini?  Even for autocross?  Dennis, I thought I saw a set on your car at MMW 2008?

Thanks scoop, I will see if I can find some more info on those Dunlops.

This is the right time of year to call the east coast Dunlop importer/distributor again, because they bring over plane/ship loads of real race car tires for the Daytona 24, he should be able to get them to toss in a couple of sets of tens and save you some shipping cost.  You also might ask about other sizes, I think for Japan they made an 8" wide race tire.

Last time I raced was a couple years back and Hoosiers were the easiest to find, Yoks next, Dunlops after that, Avons hard to find.  Hoosiers and Yokohamas have different setup and wear characteristics, you need to get guidance once you pick a tire.  Goodyear still had a ten for F500 or whatever, but no hard compounds so you can only use it on the rear.  I raced on Firestone Indy 500s back in the day, later on Goodyear Blue Streaks.  Loved those Goodyears, well at least for about 3 laps they stuck like glue, after that I had to drive sensibly.

Anyone with Mini Road Racing experience?  I have been trying to research what is available for 10 inch wheels; something better than the vintage Hoosier TD tires. The only thing I have found is the Dunlops used on the Miglia minis, which are too expensive to get from the UK.  I talked to the engineer at Hoosier, and he does not know how long their "little car" slicks(Mini Cup, Midgets, Mini sprints, etc), would last on a 1300 pound Mini, for Track Day use, at speeds up to 120+.  He does seem to think they would not be as good as their SAE slicks, used on the 700 pound, University formula car class cars.  Last year I had a set of the discontinued Goodyear Eagles, that were used on C and D sports racers; I used them only once at MMW Tahoe autocross, but they were old Race car Take-offs, pretty age-hardened, and are badly cracked on the sidewalls, so I am affraid to run them at track speeds. 

  The car is set up pretty well now; the "weak link" has become the tires, as far as limiting lap times is concerned. The Miatas, BMW Minis and even some big SUVs are out cornering me on my A032s; even though I am faster than most of them in the straights, I have to let 'em go by, because they stack up behind me in the corners.

I have drawn the line at staying with 10" wheels, so would really like to find out if there are any 10" tires available that would get my lap times more competitive. I know the Vintage "TDs" would be a little bit better, but I am looking for a "bigger" improvment.  So if anyone has any experience running the other Hoosier road race slicks, or knows of another choice, I would like to hear about it,

Cheers, Steve