Steering/Alignment
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Cheers, Ian
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Assume you have aftermarket adjustable bits for your Mini?? If not then don't have camber or caster adjusters so are stuck with what you have. (However, I'm assuming this is egg sucking advice and you are well aware of the basics :)
Mini suspensions are not exactly precision devices... But we did pretty well back then with crossply tyres but then the cars were relatively new and the factory settings, that the engineers designed, still existed.
50 or 60 years on, if you're going to fiddle, IMHO its not a bad idea to start with the basics. Cars and subframes get bent (and fixed), things move. Its really not too hard a task to park the car on a flat floor and use a plumb bob and marker pen to assure yourself that everythings relatively true to start with.
Standard settings worked OK so its not a bad place to start. You can get a good idea about the degree of precision required. With time the suspension will drop which reduces the built in positive camber (at the front).
All that said, I would suggest (F) 1/16" toe out, 1deg negative camber and 4 deg caster (more will promote a sharper turn in at the cost of extra steering load/weight) (R) 1/8" (to 0) toe in, 0 camber.....
Good luck, cheers
Ian
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Apart from the standard adjustible toe-in on our little beings, what would be the next (single) step in front end alignment - adjustable tie rods, or adjustable lower arms?
Scott
New Zealand - The only place where a kiwi can mean a fruit, bird or mini owner...
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So I dropped the car off this morning and picked it up this afternoon for alignment. I talked with George in the AM with what I had done to the car suspension this winter. I picked it up around 4ish and am very happy. Cruising at 65-70 and no rattles or shaking present. No pulling left or right. He stated the car's rear was perfect ( I have never touched the rear suspension/alignment to this point), driver's side he said was also pretty good, passenger side needed some work. All in all, GREAT JOB DONE.
Thanks to:
George Jenkins, Shadetree Automotive, Marshallton, DE 302.999.7500
Not sure if thre are any locals that need Mini support in the Delaware area.
Jason
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So I am runnig 12's on the car. From talking to George at Shadetree Automotive on Friday, he definitely convinced me that has the expertise to ge the job done. I did make an adjustment later in the day and nearly got the steering wheel centered. I could do more to dial in the toe, but still would be out on the castor. Just looking for someone to dial all this in for the first time. I'll come back and let you all know how we fared. Thanks for everyone's support & advice.....
Jason
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Unfortunately, these days a lot of the "flash" alignment shops use new equipment that allows for 20 or more inch wheels. The down side is that these can't be adjusted downwards enough to allow the laser heads to be mounted on 10" wheels....
However, many of the good shops appreciate that you don't really need the bling and understand that expertise + quality old school engineering is really the best.
You don't need a Mini specialist and if you look hard enough you should be able to find someone who actually knows what ther're doing.
To me, asking for a VIN is a pretty clear message that they don't.
Cheers, Ian
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Well before I went to get the car aligned this morning, I checked that the steering rack was centered. And it was. Turns out, the car center I was hoping to do the alignment, could not. I ended up finding another place, but won't be able to get in until next Tuesday. After calling around, it seems everyone has digital/laser alignment, but they need to enter a VIN in the system to find your vehicle. If your VIN does not come up, they cannot do the vehicle. I know the specs that are needed for my car, but it will not allow them to enter in the information. Has anyone run into this before. Is there another vehicle that resembles the Mini VIN wise that can be substituted so the specifications can be entered. The place I am taking it to onTuesday says, he cannot put it on his main machine due to this and it wont fit. But he has the equipment to do it on the floor. Anyone ever used Shadetree Automotive outside Wilmington, DE?
Jason
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Jeff I may be flamed here for this but I shim the outer swing arm mount to toe the rear. Kosher?
No, you're absolutely correct. You can also change the rear camber by elongating the hole in the subframe-to-arm bracket. I did that to set the camber until I could afford the high dollar adjustables that I have now (that have their own issues).
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The fronts toe is adjusted as follows:
- Loosen the jam nut at the tie rod end.
- Spin the threaded bar (the one between the steering rack and the tie rod end) into or out of the tie rod as necessary.
- I would limit to about 1/4 of a rotation of the bar between measurements.
- Once you make a change, you will likely have to move the car back and forth a little to remove the binding you just created on the steering system.
- tighten the jam nut once you're done and do a final measurement. Adjust as necessary
If you twist the steering arm to adjust toe, the steering arm gaiters will get twisted, too, and destroyed sooner.
No one mentions this, unless I am doing something wrong. Here is what i do: unloosen the clip or ziptie on the outer end of the gaiter. Then do the toe adjustment. The gaiter will get contorted with just a half turn, reducing its longevity. When satisfied with toe, then twist the end of the gaiter to the new position so its "accordion" is now straight. This twisting of the gaiter can be VERY hard to do. You must keep trying, it moves only a tiny fraction at a time because it grips the steering rod so tightly. Replace ziptie, altho I don't see where it even needs one. The thing is on there tight.
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Jeff I may be flamed here for this but I shim the outer swing arm mount to toe the rear. Kosher?
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DyeCooper -
Your measurements do give some insight into why the steering wheel is off center. The rear measurements are fine and are (I believe) in line with what the factory would have used as stock settings. Toe in on the rear will prevent the car from oversteering (read: safe).
My friend created that article that you referenced after I showed him how to do the alignment. if you want more specifics you can read my lengthy but detailed writeup here.
Depending on your rear suspension you may not be able to adjust toe or camber so you'll have to live with those.
The fronts toe is adjusted as follows:
- Loosen the jam nut at the tie rod end.
- Spin the threaded bar (the one between the steering rack and the tie rod end) into or out of the tie rod as necessary.
- I would limit to about 1/4 of a rotation of the bar between measurements.
- Once you make a change, you will likely have to move the car back and forth a little to remove the binding you just created on the steering system.
- tighten the jam nut once you're done and do a final measurement. Adjust as necessary
Caster is set by the length of the tie bars (that run from the bottom arms to the subframe). These are not adjustable on stock minis.
Camber is set by the length of the lower arms, and again are not adjustable on stock minis.
One note though: camber toe, and caster do not adjust independently. Adjusting camber can affect toe and camber. Camber changes can affect toe. Doing a full alignment is an iterative activity.
Regarding the 'long tie rod ends': I just recently bought two new ones, so yes they are still available.
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Thanks for all the guidance given to this point....I did not do anything with the steering wheel yet. Looks like I need some adjusting first elsewhere.
So I attempted to do a string alignment. I used https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.483327311711282.108954.292110140833001&type=3 as my guide. I wanted to find out where I was before I have it aligned tomorrow morning. It appears the front right was 3/32 toe out, front left 1/4 toe in, rear right 7/32 toe in, rear left 5/16 toe in. The numbers in the rear appear to be out and I have not done anything to that rear suspension yet. I would assume there is nothing I can really do back there until I tear into that in the future, YES? The front left needs some adjusting at the tie rod to change the toe...
So the way I understand alignment on the mini. I can adjust TOE by turning the tie rods in/out. The Castor by adjusting the diagonal tie rods. And Camber is unable to be adjusted do to the car being stock. Am I missing something?
They used to sell track rod ends with more thread ie longer ones do they still have them? I think the one I got were a little bit longer...
Jason
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All good advise given but there's no substitute for a proper 4 wheel alignment done on a modern laser machine! and given the cost is just about 1 screwed up Yoko I think well worth the money! Also be aware that the more Neg. camber you put on the car the less thread you will have to retain the track rod ends! They used to sell track rod ends with more thread ie longer ones do they still have them?
Mini's are like buses they come along in a bunch
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Generally speaking our north american roads are built with a crown, arching gently to the shoulder. As was noted in an earlier post, if the caster is set the same on both left and right, the vehicle will tend to steer itself off the road. Having a bit more caster on the right hand side offsets this result.
Caster can be set at fewer degrees but the vehicle will have a slower return or require more steering input to go straight ahead again.
Try setting the caster at 3.5 degrees say on both sides and drive the vehicle. Try it at 2.5 left and 3.5 right or.... Your vehicle your preference for the types of roads most commonly driven. No matter the choice you make, the lower the number of degrees the less "self-centering" will be seen.
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Isn't it also advised... Pull the rubber grommet out of the passenger side foot well- pull the plug out of the steering rack- and insert rod / dowel in and fin the true rack Center.
I did this along with the full tidy string alignment.
Rack Centered.
String alignment for Toe.
Adjust wheel in the end for Straightness on the splines.
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Hunter that is very interesting you do different caster for the right side of the road. I learned something... thank you.
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